My interview with veteran Wall Street strategist and economist Ed Yardini for my MarketWatch column
Wall Street’s biggest optimist says he ‘wouldn’t jump into the AI trade right now’
Ed Yardeni, who coined the phrase ‘bond vigilantes,’ says Treasury yields won’t stay higher for longer, and believes the ‘Roaring 2020s’ will last
Link to MarketWatch article: Link
Ed Yardeni, who’s been called the most bullish man on Wall Street, says he hasn’t been bullish enough.
‘Instead of FOMO, we are seeing what I have dubbed FEMO, which stands for fabulous earnings momentum.’—Ed Yardeni
Ed Yardeni, who was recently called the most bullish man on Wall Street by a Bloomberg anchor, keeps getting more optimistic about the stock market.
Already this year, he’s raised his year-end target for the S&P 500 three times — from 7,700 to 8,250 to 8,400 — but says he still isn’t bullish enough. And, he adds, plenty of sell-side analysts are more bullish than he is.
Yardeni, president of Yardeni Research, started his career on Wall Street in 1978 at E.F. Hutton and later served as chief economist at Prudential Securities and C.J. Lawrence. He coined the term bond vigilantes in 1983. He is the author of “Predicting the Markets: A Professional Autobiography.”
In this interview, edited for length and clarity, Yardeni explains why today’s AI-driven bull market has little in common with the dot-com bubble, why the mounting national deficit doesn’t worry him and where he expects the ‘Roaring 2020s’ to go from here.
MarketWatch: What is the most important difference between the dot-com boom and today’s AI-driven market?
Yardeni: The dot-com boom was driven largely by FOMO, fear of missing out. The valuation multiple of the S&P 500 soared, led by the technology sector. The forward price-to-earnings ratio got to a record high of 25 by early 2000, led by a forward P/E for the information-technology sector that soared to something like 55. [Forward P/E uses aggregate sell-side analyst estimates of earnings per share over the next 12 months for the S&P 500 companies.]
This time around, forward P/Es have actually gone down. Instead of FOMO, we are seeing what I have dubbed FEMO, which stands for fabulous earnings momentum. This bull market, or melt-up, has been earnings-led, whereas the previous one was valuation-led, which makes it more sustainable and less troubling than what led to the tech wreck.
Semiconductors now have a P/E of about 17, while the market’s P/E is about 20. Investors are not willing to pay anywhere near the multiples they paid in the 1999 bubble. Quite the opposite: As analysts have raised their earnings expectations, the valuation multiple has actually gone down.
MarketWatch: What would make you abandon the Roaring 2020s thesis?
Yardeni: There are a lot of things that can go wrong. That is my base case, but I would put an 80% subjective probability on the Roaring 2020s continuing, with a 20% bucket of scenarios where things go very wrong. I would not abandon the thesis outright. I would adjust my subjective probabilities instead.
Geopolitics is a major issue, though crises have historically been buying opportunities, as we saw in March when a pullback lasted about a month before reversing. The real risk is the price of oil, both for consumers and for inflation, which could force central banks to raise rates.
The U.S. and global economy have weathered rate hikes well. The fed-funds rate went from near zero to 5.5% in 2022 and 2023, and the economy stayed resilient. But a bear market does not require a recession. We had one in 2022 without a recession, and that is conceivable again.
‘I do not agree that rates are staying higher for longer. I think 4% to 5% is normal, and I will worry about a debt crisis when the bond vigilantes worry about it.’—Ed Yardeni
MarketWatch: With the federal debt so high, are the bond vigilantes back, and is that a problem for investors?
Yardeni: The debt certainly goes on the worry list, but it has been on that list for more than 45 years. I coined the phrase ‘bond vigilantes’ in July 1983.
I wrote at the time that if the fiscal and monetary authorities, the sheriffs, do not keep law and order in the capital markets and the economy, then the bond vigilantes will step up and do it themselves by pushing up bond yields. Back then, they were concerned about $250 billion in federal deficits on a 12-month basis. Now we are looking at $1.5 trillion to $2 trillion.
I do not agree that rates are staying higher for longer. I think 4% to 5% is normal, and I will worry about a debt crisis when the bond vigilantes worry about it. They are certainly active in Japan and the United Kingdom, and they are starting to stir in the U.S., as well.
(A week before this interview, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent intervened to prop up the yen by selling euros, apparently without asking the Europeans. That was unsettling, a reminder that the U.S. depends on the kindness of strangers, and that kindness may be starting to wear thin.)
‘I would not jump into the AI trade right now. Everyone has AI fatigue, and it is too hard to say who wins, who loses and who might blow up. If you want that exposure, hold a diversified fund like the QQQ rather than picking individual stocks.’—Ed Yardeni
MarketWatch: What would you tell an investor who feels that they missed out on this year’s gains and is thinking about jumping in now?
Yardeni: They should have been reading my research. It is hard to tell someone who missed a bull market anything comforting, but historically some bull markets have run much longer and kept delivering big gains. There are still opportunities because valuation multiples have actually gone down even as earnings expectations have gone up.
The counterargument is that the irrational exuberance this time is in analyst earnings expectations rather than valuations, but those expectations are being driven by real performance: First- and second-quarter numbers were extremely strong, and analysts raised their 2027 estimates as a result. It really comes down to whether we get a recession, and I do not think we will.
That said, I would not jump into the AI trade right now. Everyone has AI fatigue, and it is too hard to say who wins, who loses and who might blow up. If you want that exposure, hold a diversified fund like the QQQ rather than picking individual stocks. I do not know who wins or loses, but both are likely in the Nasdaq-100, so on balance the winners should beat the losers.
Beyond that, focus on industries that benefit from using AI rather than the AI companies themselves. I like financials and healthcare, which should find plenty of uses for AI to raise revenue and cut costs, and industrials, given the hyperscalers’ (the major cloud computing companies) commitments to expand AI capacity. I would add energy as a fourth overweight. Information technology and communication services, which we overweighted for a long time, moved back to market weight toward the end of last year.
MarketWatch: Does your 8,400 year-end S&P 500 target still hold?
Yardeni: Yes. I try not to change it too often. I started the year at 7,700, raised it to 8,250 in May, and raised it again a couple of weeks ago to 8,400, each time responding to earnings reports that showed FEMO. I have been bullish, but not bullish enough, on earnings.
MarketWatch: So far you have been right. Does that make you nervous?
Yardeni: A little. I have a bit of a contrarian streak in me, so I try to stay open-minded.
My approach is that unless your day job is day trading, stocks are for the long run, and pullbacks and bear markets tend to be opportunities to get in. The problem with the permabears is that they will get you out at the top, out at the middle and out at the bottom. You will never actually be in the market.
MarketWatch: Should U.S. investors be buying overseas stocks right now?
Yardeni: We have been recommending staying home over going global since 2010, and that worked well until last year, when going global outperformed and we did not fully anticipate the rotation away from the U.S. By the end of last year, we said going global made more sense, partly because U.S. stocks accounted for 65% of the entire world market by capitalization at the start of last year.
There was not much point in telling people to keep overweighting the U.S. when it had already succeeded so well, and opportunities existed overseas. So far this year, going global has worked fine.
MarketWatch: How about gold? Is it worth owning for protection?
Yardeni: Yes, absolutely, though I have never been a gold bug and am honestly clueless when it comes to valuing something with no coupon or dividend. But after Russia invaded Ukraine and the U.S. froze its international reserves, foreign central banks, particularly China’s, began buying more gold and reducing their dollar reserves. That is when gold started to make sense to me.
It has been tricky. Gold did not rally on this year’s geopolitical crisis the way you might expect, and instead sold off sharply.
We had used $5,500 as our year-end target but lowered it to $5,000 after gold’s perverse performance. It found support around $4,000 and bounced, then rebounded further after a recent Treasury Department announcement. I think having some gold makes sense in this environment.
MarketWatch: Is there something the bond market knows that we do not?
Yardeni: It is worth watching the credit markets, since problems there tend to surface before stocks catch on.
MarketWatch: You are going to speak at the MoneyShow in a few days. What will your talk be about?
Yardeni: It is titled “Will the Roaring 2020s Continue Into the 2030s?” The question is whether we are still on course. We are in the seventh year of the Roaring 2020s, an idea I first wrote about in August 2020, when it looked delusional.
It has worked out: no recession, and both the U.S. economy and the stock market are at all-time highs. I have about three more years to go to get it right.
But things could still go wrong, especially in the 2030s. The problem with the 2030s is that it rhymes with the 1930s, which was a horrible period for geopolitical crises.
Michael Sincere is a freelance financial writer and the author of several books including “Understanding Stocks,” “Understanding Options” and “Help Your Child Build Wealth.”